HPL Electric & Power Ltd

held with the Investors/Analysts is enclosed herewith and the same is also available on the Company’s website i.e. www.hplindia.com. Kindly take the same on record. Thanking You Yours Faithfully For HPL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED Vivek Kumar Company Secretary Encl: As above VIVEK KUMAR Digitally signed by VIVEK KUMAR DN: c=IN, o=Personal, postalCode=110095, l=East Delhi, st=Delhi, street=A 125 S-1 DILSHAD COLONY 110095, 2.5.4.20=3eb36823c8b414e7e934f2e0af3da010 641437e49524495d66b6b358709bf23f, serialNumber=052767230d5f1c44b1c2164eefd b84f2c760ac7359949d646e7ce9b91f23d372, email=hplcs@hplindia.com, cn=VIVEK KUMAR Date: 2024.11.19 10:49:59 +05'30'

HPL Electric & P Q2 & H1FY25 Ea Friday, Nov 15, 20241:00PM IST Answered by Management: Mr. Gautam Seth- Join Moderator: Good morning, Ladies and Gentlem Earnings Webinar produced by Elev We’re pleased to welcome the senio • Mr. Gautam Seth- Joint Ma To participate in the Audio Interactiv be added to the que. Instructions o management begins their opening re the Question and Answer que. You can also view and download H from the documents made accessibl As a reminder, this conference is b looking, based on current expectatio With that, I now hand the conference Thank you, and over to you, Gautam Gautam Seth: Good afternoon, everyone, and tha review HPL Electric & Power Ltd.'s start by sharing a brief overview of o Getting into the Q2 numbers, for this while H1 marked a 21.5% increase, company. Transcribed byElevEase - 1 - H Power Ltd. arnings Webinar Tran nt Managing Director & CFO men. Welcome to HPL Electric & Power Ltd.’ vEase. We appreciate your time and interest in j or management team from HPL who are presen naging Director & CFO of HPL ve Q&A session of this webinar, please raise you n how to raise your hand are available in the w emarks, please feel comfortable to raise your h HPL’s Investor Presentation and Press Release le here. being recorded. Some statements in today’s c ons and subject to risks that could cause results e over to Gautam m. nk you for joining us. It’s a pleasure to connec performance for the second quarter and first ha our financial performance. s period, our revenue grew by 20.5% year-ove , reaching ₹815 crore – both are milestone top PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED script s Q2 & H1 FY2025 oining us today. t on today’s call: ur hand, and you will webinar chat. As the ands to start forming e for Q2 & H1FY25, call may be forward- to differ materially. ct with you all as we alf of FY25. I’d like to r-year to ₹422 crore, pline numbers for the

This growth reflects sustained dem increase in revenue in Q2, reaffirmi order book exceeding ₹3,500 crore these orders, we are well-positioned Our focus on smart meter solutio infrastructure landscape, a responsi Our Consumer, Industrial & Servi particular, our Wires & Cables div market sectors. This segment contin quality and innovation. In lighting, w year. Meanwhile, our Domestic Sw alignment with customer needs and distribution network to over 900 d expansion has allowed us to deepe are more accessible to customers th intend to keep expanding our netwo In terms of profitability, we have see ₹60.58 crore, and by 33.8% for H 14.34% in Q2 and 14.32% for H1 discipline. Likewise, PAT growth, w growth with profitability, while earnin to shareholders. Looking ahead, apart from smart me Consumer and Industrial segments cash flow and returns. We will cont foster innovation and meet the chan and solutions, we remain focused connected, energy-efficient future. Let us start with the Q&A session. Moderator: Thank you very much. Gautam, w wishing to ask questions, please rais We'll begin with the first question fro Transcribed byElevEase - 2 - H mand in our core Metering & Systems segmen ng our positioning within India’s metering mark (by the end of H1), with smart meters now ma d to contribute meaningfully to the nation’s sma ons allows us to meet the evolving requirem bility we approach with both enthusiasm and ca ices segments have also demonstrated pos vision achieved 57.5% growth, driven by dem nues to gain traction within the B2C market, dr we expect stabilisation to occur by the beginning witchgear segment delivered over 34.5% gro d market dynamics. To support this growth, we ealers and more than 83,000 retailers nation en our market presence, ensuring that HPL’s h hroughout India. As we move through the seco rk to deepen our market penetration even furthe en encouraging progress. Our EBITDA increase H1, reaching ₹116.71 crore. The EBITDA mar highlights the benefits of our efficiency measu which nearly doubled, speaks to our ongoing ngs per share reflect our dedication to deliverin eters, we are committed to driving healthy grow , where relatively shorter working capital cycle tinue to invest in advanced R&D and manufac nging demands of our industry. As we introduc d on contributing positively to India’s journe we'll now begin with the question-and-answer se your hand, and you'll be invited to unmute an om the line of Sahil Patani. Please go ahead. PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED t, which saw a 29% ket. Supported by an aking up over 90% of art energy transition. ments of the energy areful planning. itive momentum. In mand across various iven by our focus on g of the next financial owth, reflecting our have expanded our nwide. This network high-quality products nd half for FY25, we er. ed by 28.4% in Q2 to rgin improvement to ures and operational g efforts to balance ng sustainable value wth, particularly in our es support enhanced cturing capabilities to ce new technologies ey towards a more session. For those nd speak in turn.

about the figures, what we see in th have been given out to the AMISP getting finalized on the meter manuf a good chance. So I would say, in talking about inquiries which are go active inquiries, what we have are f AMISPS who are right now active a think right now our we are not worr supplying already to most of the A expect further orders to be released as I think now, it's a continuous proc and depending on our delivery sc promises- I think we are confident of Moderator: Our next question will be from the lin Viraj Mahadevia: Hi Gautam, congratulations on all t about. Yeah. Thank you. Two quest to smart meters to commence? Q3 Smart Metering business in revenue Gautam Seth: If you see the growth, what we are d 29% in this second quarter, 34% in happening like this. Now I don't see we are into the supply business. You based each time. So as we have m multiple projects in different states, w broad based, and we will see a cont the business is growing, and we wou Viraj Mahadevia: Historically, you have obviously Elec the conventional meters. Now you mentioned in your presentation, alm Transcribed byElevEase - 4 - H he public domain, roughly, I would say about 12 P, by the various state utilities. Now those o facturers, and we being a prominent player, de stead of tenders, you can say, probably those oing to come in that. So right now also, we, w fairly good enough, and we are probably engag and independent in the market. So there are a ried on that, because eventually these orders w AMISPs so as more and more supplies are go to them. Certain new AMISPS, also, we've bee cess, as in a business whereas more and more chedules, the quality, what we are, you know f getting many more orders in the future. ne of Viraj Mahadevia, please proceed with you the visible positive trends in the business that tions, Gautam, one is, can we expect the pivot onwards, would you say-can you expect a me es to commence from q3 onwards? doing from the last year, we are talking about al the overall H1 so going forward, also, we will k e a, you know, a sudden spike happening overa u know, we are supplying to the AMISPS and no more and more AMISPS, whom we are supplyin what each single AMISP is doing so broadly, th tinuous growth. I don't see a big spike happeni uld continue to see the supplies happening. ctricals and branded electricals business, and y r order book has shifted more in favor of sm most 3200 crores out of 3500 crores is smart me PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED 2 crore meter orders rders are eventually efinitely, we do stand e, these are, we are when you look at the ging with most of the lot of inquiries. So I will come in. We are oing to them. We do en talking but overall, orders will be going, w, what the product r question. you've been talking in a meaningful way eaningful pivot to the lmost, you know, like keep seeing a growth all, like this. Because ow it is getting broad ng to, plus they have e business is getting ng into this. But yes, you've done more of mart meters. As you eters 99-95% of that,

right? So now, would you expect th onwards? Gautam Seth: I think that's already happening and continue to happen. But you know, delays little bit here, and there are s in an interim period. The utilities- b they're not implementing so that bus our overall mix, because already, change is happening, and it will furth Viraj Mahadevia: My second question is, what is the many times? Gautam Seth: You know, normally we I would refra in the public domain, maybe they're per meter. Viraj Mahadevia: Just number of times. So you know, Gautam Seth: The conventional meters were typica Viraj Mahadevia: So we're talking at least minimum 2- Gautam Seth: Roughly, exactly Transcribed byElevEase - 5 - H his positive mix change for smart metering to d already happening. Yeah, it's already happen as like you might have seen, also, that there small challenges happening while the implemen because they would need some meters, and ev siness, that smaller part, will keep continuing th we have 95% of our metering orders are sm her happen like that. average price of a smart meter versus a conve ain from referring like that. But the figures, what a little older right now, but people talk about IN what is the conventional meter versus the Sma ally at a ballpark figure of INR 1000-1200, norm -2.5% right? PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED play out starting q3 ning, and that would e have been, smaller ntations are going on ven for areas where he legacy meters into mart meters. So the entional meter? How normally people talk NR 3000 or INR 3.5k art Meter? mally.

so that we go with a basket to ou segment. So that is it now coming to solar. Y solar cable, the net metering and ev with our existing. Uh, you know, inte the solar products of cable gets add meters, going to the metering report But yes, there's a good traction ev come out with, that also will give us look at the industrial switch gear se because of certain procurements of happens all through the dealers and slightly slow in the industrial switch of the year, Arpit Maheshwari : Can you do that in the solar meter, solar net meter? And you are clubb the separate way in the future, years Gautam Seth : We can look at it,but when we talk switch gear, we are talking about because we have the string junctio huge range. And eventually, when g a lot of that is happening. So for us t picture, at least when we are giving future, and as the R & D what we h have already launched, we definitely Arpit Maheshwari : So, sir, you have talked about that year, but I want to know that, are manufacturer for that? Gautam Seth : Right now, these are vendorized, w as in with HPL at the way we see, o Transcribed byElevEase - 7 - H ur trade channel partners, to our customers, e Yes, we are seeing a good traction on the sola ven our switchgears. But this business, this rep ernal product vertical. So when we look at con ded in the cable and cable business reporting, ting. So we are not giving out a specific reporti ven the new schemes of rooftop solar, which s a pan India growth in the next three to four ye egment, last two years, we have seen a very go the government and certain through the contrac d distributors, through the contractors. They are gear segment, but hopefully that should pick u the solar products, bifurcation wise, like, what ing those right now, and the main segments on s to come? k on solar products, there are lot of it. If you lo over 30 to 40 different products. So it's not on boxes, we have the AC DC converters, we grids are changing to, you know, from the fossil to go to minutely in our reporting, then we proba g out our results. Yeah, but one thing is there, t have and the manufacturing capabilities and the y have a good, you know, opportunity going forw the fans business you are full facing through you manufacturing these fans in house, or th with a lot of tooling and design being done in ho once we see a growth coming in, and we reach PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED even in the building ar, especially on the porting, gets clubbed sumer and industrial , the meters, the net ng on the solar part. the government has ears. Now, when we ood growth this year ctors. Of course, this the offtake has been up in the second half t is the growth in the nly. So can you do it ook at only the solar about one product, e have this. So it's a fuel to the solar and ably lose the broader that's the solar is the e products which we ward. the April of the next here is a third party ouse. But, you know, a critical mass, then

probably we would look at, you kno going forward, but many of our othe good traction in the market, and whe and then go forward into the manufa Moderator : Thanks for your questions. Arpit, p questions. Our next question will be ahead and ask your question. Yeah. Suraj Jain : Thanks for the opportunity. I just w have in the 5G technology? Gautam Seth : So currently, we are supplying certa So, a lot of growth. What we have s cable side, where we are also doing we are seeing and we are supplyin telecom business, and also to the segment for us. And I think we are into their installations. Suraj Jain : So what will be the share of revenue Gautam Seth : So although, you know, these are, l the real estate segment. We also h although telecom and cable and w number, but they are decent enough one or two segments. So although wire and cable, it will not be so dom out in terms of our customer segme wire and cable right from a residenti real estate has been good, even on builders, that's also been growing. telecom also has seen a good growt Transcribed byElevEase - 8 - H ow, we would be open to looking at manufactu er products, also, we have started the same w en a critical business comes in, then I think it's a acturing. please raise your hand to rejoin the queue for e from the line of Suraj. Jan Suraj, you can unm . want to know what we have offering for the 5G ain switch gears to the telecom companies and seen in the past couple of years we are, is ma g for their infrastructures, including the tower in ng to almost every major contractor who is do to the largest telco- we are supplying directly looking at even some more products in switch e over a period of time and going forward? like the way we look at telecom business, we a have a lot of OEM segments, you know, like di wire are relevant to infrastructure, I will proba h, you know. But still we are not, as a company it's a very important part of it, but roughly as a inating, you know, because we are as HPL, we ents here, and our growth comes from all acro ial segment, commercial segment, we are seein the industrial side, like the cables going to indu The domestic wire, of course, has been grow th from last two years. PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED uring in a bigger way way. But as we see a a good time to invest any more follow up mute yourself and go G products, what we the wire and cables. ainly on the wire and nstallations. So there oing business in the also. So it's a good hgears which can go also have, you know, ifferent segments.So ably not have put a y dependent only on a share of the overall are very well spread ss. So if you look at ng good growth. The ustries or OEM panel wing so similarly, the

real term growth, and even the indu a good way, and a high double digit ShauryaPunjiani : And sir, we give that order book, th that order group,usually? Gautam Seth : So in this, if you see almost, we ca 95% is the overall metering, you kn six months for preparation. The exe and a half to three years is what the that, these orders are structured, an ShauryaPunjiani : Thank you for that. That's it, yeah, th Moderator : Thanks for your questions. Our nex unmute your line and ask your quest Pranjal Mukhija : So I had a couple of questions with manufacturing the meters, or are w AMI part of the chain? Gautam Seth : So our main focus currently is on the orders, almost bulk, other than one basically on supply, you know, dev AMSPs, and that is where our, you k Pranjal Mukhija : So we're not going to have any futur Transcribed byElevEase - 10 - H ustrial segment to come back. So overall, yes, w growth definitely look certain going forward. hat 3500 crore order book. So what is the exec n say 90% is smart meter in this and, and alm now. So if you see the Smart Meter, the norma ecution is supposed to be in two and a half ye execution timeline schedules are for the Smart nd that's how we are supplying,you know, these hank you. xt question will be from the line of Pranjal Mukh tion. regards to the Smart Meter division. So curren we also, like, forward, integrating into the, you k e manufacturing and supply of meters. So if yo e which we took up in West Bengal, I think veloping and supplying manufacturing these m know, the focus would remain. re plans to, like, get into the communications sid PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED we see the market in cution time frame for ost, probably almost ally with a time lag of ears. So overall, two t Meter. So based on e meters. hija, Pranjal, you can ntly, are we only just know, into the whole u look at most of our entire order book is meters to the for the de of things?

telecom. So we have seen aall rou domestic switch gear there, the fo because now we have almost five manner. So if you look at we have LED lighting and we have fans. So o bigger way. So in all the states now where the focus on real estate and we have taken on that, even if yo specifically, the Q2 has seen certai more people. A lot of activities happ programs or retailer meets, even w the branding part, distribution part, have seen. I would say good growth 30% growth in the first H1 and the d overall, I think these are certain o dynamics. When you look at on t although the cities and metros are probably a lot of it is coming from t And I think the growth in terms of probably in the tier two, tier three se areas where, in future we would as and non-city segments. Moderator : Thanks for your question. So the qu smart meters that seem to be banne Gautam Seth : Yeah. So you know, while we are l now a lot of work is going on across are in the news, and we are seein pockets, these are happening. And ahead on these supplies to be happ a smaller part being supplied to the months, both these states will be bu the commercial side, industry side a which, as per us, personally, I feel t getting, you know, implemented, we in. So there were a lot of protests. the electronic meters would be, yo more. But I would say those we hav Transcribed byElevEase - 12 - H und growth in wire and cable. And similarly, w cus on real estate has been strong. So as a e segments of products which can go into re MCB, DBs, we have switches, we have wire overall, these five segments now can be pushed w, we are putting in almost like a separate vertic key accounts would be strong. So I think there ou look at on the branding part, I think this n you know. Growth in our brand visibility. We pening at the ground level, whether they are the with consumer connect. So somewhere, I think we have been reaching out in all the segments h in these two segments. In fact, if you see wir domestic switch gear has been almost 27% grow of our strategies have paid us the results in t the geographical areas, what you were aski always covered, but I think the growth, if we the tier two and tier three cities and the big tow our channel, what is happening, the retailer, egments. So I think these are the segments wh HPL, we would see a lot of growth coming in fr uestion that has come in Gautam,is what is you ed in many states, like Gujarat, Maharashtra, for ooking at the implementation and supplies, wh s the country. So there have been certain prote ng it. But I think these are, I would say, tempo as more and more consumer awareness come pening. So we, of course, looking at our produc ese states, but overall, if you see, I do expect i uying again, and they have probably re-shifted t and other things. And the domestic part will ob his will come back in a bigger way whenever th e have seen it even in 1996-2000 when the ele There were sometimes delays happening beca u know, like the meters would go faster. They ve seen those times also, so similarly here, als PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED when you look at the a company now with eal estate in a good and cable, we have d into real estate in a cal within our teams, e are a lot of actions first half, and more e are reaching out to e electrician connect , to some extent, on s. So that's what we re and cable, almost wth in the first H1 So terms of the market ng there our focus, e were to analyze is wns, what are there. maximum growth is ere, or these are the rom these non-Metro ur action plan for the r households? hich, of course, right ests, which probably orary, and in certain es, we will see a Go ct portfolio, this is still in the next couple of the focus to more on bviously be taken up, he new technology is ectronic meters came ause people felt that y would have to pay so, as we look at the

consumer awareness going up, I information, you know, on the educ huge benefit for the utilities and th especially, I think a lot of thing is prepaid. So I think these things happ with the data, what he gets, the way will see the benefit and eventually th Moderator : Thanks. Gautam, we'll take another your line and ask your question. Plea Deepak Mehta : Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, implementation? So can we see 10 t Gautam Seth : No, so the current scheme, what yo four years should be done, because happening in multiple states throu projects in different states. Those th initially, when the orders are given time they, you know, get the local l and then go live happens. But once you know, add on to what your ques under this the first 10 year, you kno then we have a 10 year period. But e period, probably a new generation o a period, you will see the metering whether we look at 15 years or 20 metering, as far as smart metering is Deepak Mehta : My question is around, yeah. So y outsource the material from vendors Transcribed byElevEase - 13 - H think government is also doing a lot of wo ation part of the benefits of smart meters. So s he government, because that cuts the AT&C also on the prepaid part, you know, changing pen, but the technology is good. I think even in y he can analyze and the accuracy, what is the hey would be rolled out. That's the way we look r question from the line of Deepak Mehta. Deep ase go ahead. sir. My question is around, what is the runw to 15 years of runway for the same? ou look at, I think the implementation probably e the way it is picking up and now, the implem gh multiple AMISPs, and even single AMISP hings are there- the pace is picking up right now out to the AMISP, there is a time lag of six to level integration done, or, you know, certain pi e the pace picks up, the implementation would stion is that if you look at the long-term benefits ow, the supplies are to happen in almost three even going forward, we would see by the time w of smart metering coming in, new technologies getting enhanced, and again, a new set of m years, it's definitely a long term story. When y s concerned. you manufacture the Smart Meter. So what is s or third party? PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED ork to give out the smart meters have a C losses. You know, g from a postpaid to individual consumer re, I think the people at it. pak, you can unmute way for smart meter y in the next three to mentation probably is Psare doing multiple w, because a lot of it eight months by the ilotmeters are tested happen. And to just, s, because right now, e to four years. And we reach the 10 year coming in. And over meters coming in. So you look at the smart the percentage you

Yeah. So, we are very well backwa India, probably we would have almo do right from engineering, plastic to house. Only thing where we are de India. So certain parts, like compon look at the semiconductors or the a India, they must be imported. But I t even going forward, we are looking which are critical to be backward in Chain Management, maybe the pric obviously the overall, the Make in enhanced. Moderator : Thanks for your questions, Deepak, ups. We have another question tha share the success rate of new tend not focusing on financing meters. Ar Gautam Seth : So, like, as I said earlier, we are not dependent upon, you know, interact orders based on our merits. So that on direct entering. So right now, ou supplies going to the government completely to a private segment. Th think there are about one odd AMI know, like kind of a JV arrangement know, we are not part of their cons overall, that still gives us a big oppo not competing with our AMISPs in in with multiple AMISPs to do that. And smart meters. And I think that is wh the RDSS. Moderator : Thanks for your answer. Gautam, w you can unmute your line, and ask y Transcribed byElevEase - 14 - H ard integrated. I think among, I would say all t ost the highest levels of backward integrations oling, electronics, a lot of components, everyth ependent on others or components is items wh ents, could be coming from outside, but within active, passive electronic components. Since th think we are well ahead of what the industry cu g at, you know, making much more, you know ntegrated, so that we can have a better, you kn ing coming down, a consistency in quality and t n India, what we are promoting is, I think, t , you can rejoin the queue by raising your hand at's been sent in. The question is, Gautam, w ers released specific to smart meters? And sec re there cases of deals being lost? If yes, any nu t directly participating in tenders for AMISP, so ting and negotiating with the AMISPs and gettin t is it. So, there is no success ratio what we hav ur business from a B to G, where we were foc are today now more of a private, you know hat is how it is. Now, when you look at it, yes, t ISPs who are focused with only one manufac t. So, yes, those kinds of businesses we stand t sortium or JV, you know, which is done prior t ortunity to deal with all the independent AMISP n those tenders. So, we do stand a chance to be d I think our focus has been on the R & D desig here we are playing on our strengths right now e'll take another follow up question from the line your question. PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED the manufacturers in . What we do so we hing we do, mostly in hich are not made in India and when you hey are not made in urrently is doing. And w, components, even now, a better Supply technology, and then that would also get d for any more follow would you be able to condly, since HPL is umbers to share? our business is now ng the, you know, the ve, you know, based cused, mainly, 100% , like a B to B, but here could be only, I turer combined, you to lose because, you to the tendering. But Ps, and since we are e a preferred partner gn, manufacturing of in this first phase of e of Viraj Mahadevia,

this question because we're seeing with Keynes also like, you know, ac plans of, you know, capturing som barriers to entry in this business? Gautam Seth : No, so there are no barriers, for sure the technology right, getting the, y know, like every business, what we have been no barriers in the meterin in the metering industry. And with scenario was there. So, most of the okay, now it's a new opportunity. Lo for the competition. We do have manufacturing. So, I think a lot of working to grow up and make sure t fast-growing industry that we maint competitive. Rates will go down in going tremendously high, so and we demands, which would come in the competitive it is, the better benefit f think that's how the landscape is, an Pranjal Mukhija : So secondly, by when will we see t that 25 crore smart meter target? Gautam Seth : So, I think the evaluations are alread as per government figures, these ar already getting evaluated, but I thin because it takes time to evaluate, an they also spent a lot of time evaluat in the first half of next year, the ba know, orders to be given. It's just a gap, probably while the orders are g Transcribed byElevEase - 18 - H new players like coming up, right, like listed pla cquiring, like, sort of acquiring, and they also ha e market. So generally, wanted to understand e. The natural barriers are, of course, competin you know, the overall mix of what the busines are in, and even traditionally, in the last 25 yea ng industry. And we have seen, at times, over the way the technology moved up with the w em, almost 80-90% of the companies, went ou ot of new players are coming in. So we are, I t a big competitive edge in terms of our te them, the list goes on and on, and I think we that the market share, let's say, of 20-25% of th tain that. But yes, the competition will come i future and, but the costs are also going dow e are also doing a lot of automation at our end next one to two years. So, it's an open market, for the entire industry, for the utilities and for t nd it is going to be competitive, but that's in ever the government coming out with the tenders fo dy on. So, if they are given 12 crore orders to th re not my figures. These are as per their websit nk maybe the next three, four months, there c nd what the orders they gave, also, they were v ing, but I think that would happen maybe end o lance should come out, so there's no timeline a natural process. What we are seeing is there getting finalized to the AMISPs and the tenders a PL ELECTRIC & POWER LIMITED ayers, like Salzer and ave some, like, good d, like, what are the ng, you know, getting ss requires. So, you ars, there were, there 50 companies being way the competitive ut of the market. And think, well geared up echnology, our R&D e will. We are really he industry. And it's a n for sure, it will be wn. The volumes are d to look at the peak and I think the more he consumers. So, I ry industry. or the second half of he AMISP, and this is es. So I think they're could be some gap, very early starters, so of the year, or maybe of stoppage or, you e seems to be some are coming out.